Hey, My Darling Siestas!
I am at the Houston airport about to board my flight toward Stockton. So excited to see you California girls! A day or two ago Melissa sent me an answer to an email question she’d received to see if I’d approve it. Not only did I approve it, I asked her if she’d let me post it because a number of you might have had similar questions about Bible translations. This particular question pertains to the Message translation but we get similar questions about all sorts of translations. This is the kind of thing she and I did with our Lit class. It was so much fun. Man oh man, I love having my two daughters on this blog team so much. One thing you can count on around here is all sorts of different type posts! So let’s move from Amanda, Annabeth, and me at the Tea Room (where we did INDEED have some deep spiritual conversation amid our coconut cake – make no mistake, AJ is the deepest thinker in our family) to Melissa, our resident Bible technician. We all love serving you so much!
Off to California! Pray us a ton of Jesus!
The question in a nutshell:
I am having a very hard time putting my mind around using the Message as text for this first lesson…When I look up the Message in the Bible Gateway, it doesn’t even resemble NIV, let alone some of the other translations. I am not a KJV gal, but this is a stretch. Please help me understand. Sincerely with a searching heart.
OK, here’s Melissa’s response to the question (which has been tweaked some for purposes of posting it on a public forum):
Dear __________________,
You ask a very good question. What I appreciate most about people who are concerned with particular Bible translations is that they display a respect for the integrity of the Word of God. They don’t want people messing with it or putting their dirty little hands on it. And I totally get that.
We believe wholeheartedly in using many translations at Living Proof. To be fair, the Message is a true translation and not a paraphrase which people often assume. Eugene Peterson translates straight from the Greek and the Hebrew while a true paraphrase usually re-words or “paraphrases” an existing English translation and not the original languages. Peterson’s approach, however, is to elevate contemporary meaning and significance over the original meaning and traditional biblical idiom(s). As Fee and Stuart explain, “Peterson’s intent was to recapture the tone, to bring out the subtleties and nuances of the Hebrew and Greek languages while keeping a sense of the firsthand experience for contemporary readers. Peterson often asked himself, “If Paul were the Pastor of my church, how would he say this? or “If Jesus were here teaching, what would it sound like?” (see Fee and Strauss, “How to Choose a Translation for All Its Worth”, 33). Even though Peterson is a solid scholar and a brilliant artist with language, I would not recommend using The Message as a primary text but as a supplementary text. And my guess is that Eugene Peterson himself would never have intended for The Message to replace major English translations like the NASB, ESV, or NIV that have all been birthed by major oversight and translation committees. When used in a supplementary manner The Message really is an absolutely beautiful translation. I personally use the NASB as my primary text along with consulting the Greek and the Hebrew but I don’t consider my reading or study complete without comparing a plethora of English translations (including NASB, ESV, NRSV, NIV, NLT, KJV, and many others). I would keep in mind that every English text of the Bible is a translation except the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. To take it one step further, every translation includes some interpretation. There is just no getting away from that. And even those who have had the opportunity to study Greek and Hebrew are still studying human languages. God spoke and continues to speak through human beings, a fact that is downright humbling and astounding in and of itself.
I totally hear your heart and understand your concern which is that you would like to use the closest “literal” rendering of God’s Word that is available to us and if that is the case I would use an NASB or an ESV. An NIV is still a mediating translation but keep in mind there are great things to be said about mediating translations. Many would argue that there are serious advantages to a good mediating translation which is why so many Pastors and lay-people still use the NIV. There are three major types of translations and each have different goals: Formal Equivalence, Mediating, and Functional Equivalence. All three of these types have pros and cons which are worth contemplating and the best thing to do, in my opinion, is compare all of them and then study up on what the editors and translators were trying to do in the first place. It is always a good idea to read the Editor’s notes in the front of a particular Bible. The introduction will usually explain the method behind the translation theory and also the person or committee that was involved in the translation process. This is, of course, a very brief response and much more could be said on the matter. If you continue to have questions concerning translations I would do some intentional reading into translation theory. A very user-friendly and readable book on this very issue is called “How to Choose a Translation for All Its Worth” by Gordon Fee and Mark L. Strauss. I highly recommend it. I hope this helps you! Blessings to you.
Cordially,
Melissa Fitzpatrick
My friend Abby and I actually discussed this last night as we did our first SSBS meeting. We both agreed that we thoroughly enjoy The Message, the contemporary tone, the lively language, the personal touch that it adds to Scripture. But we've both found that on its own, it is not nearly satisfying enough. Like Melissa said, used as a supplement to another translation {for me- NIV, for Abby- NSV} it is delightful and often helpful in unpacking difficult passages. For me, personally, while I enjoy The Message, I actually find that it enhances my appreciation for my good ol' NIV.
I guess I'm just old school after all 🙂
Thank you for that post. I normally study from the NIV, NASB, New Living and the Message. However, I did not realize how to really define the purpose behind the type of translation. I love how we can share our questions and not feel dumb or stupid but know that we are all hear to love, support and teach. Again, thanks Melissa I was very impressed by your answer.
Praying hard for Stockton that the Lord's spirit would fall in a mighty way.
two thoughts to add to "the Message" question.
I use the Message translation when I am struggling to grasp an idea. I am not a biblical scholar and sometimes it's difficult to get what the writer intends.
One reason that I love the Message is that when my kids were younger, they got the biggest kick out of some of the phrasing and would take it to school to show their friends. I do believe that if the Message can continue to spark an interest (and love) of the Word in teens, it's probably not a bad thing.
Enjoy Stockton, Beth! and thanks for the thoughts Melissa!
blessings,
karen
AWESOME explanation Melissa and Beth! Will send others here who have had the same question.
Have a great weekend Siestas!
Melissa,
You are amazing and I would say your education is going to give all of us so much more than we bargined for on this blog! Thanks for sharing this question with us, it answered a few of my own.
Blessings, Bobbie
Beth,
Been praying and will continue to pray! Thanks for letting us into your life! Love you to pieces!
WOW! I have to agree with the siesta who sent the original question… our group had this very discussion. (Minus all the theological interpretative understanding and wisdomish stuff that Melissa offered ) 🙂
Thank you for clearly explaining the differences between translations. Our group really appreciates you Melissa. (And Beth for posting it!!)
WOW! I'm so glad you shared this with all of us. I've always had questions about the different translations and which ones are the closet to the original. Thanks you so much for sharing this. I plan on passing this on to quite a few people. I LOVE GETTING THIS KIND OF INFO!!!
I love to compare versions to try to gain understanding of scriptures, or to make sure I grasp the context. Sometimes, a particular version will just really resonate with me. I love Matt 6:34 from The Message. It has just stuck and I remind myself of it very often.
Give your entire attention to what God is doing right now, and don't get worked up about what may or may not happen tomorrow. God will help you deal with whatever hard things come up when the time comes. (Matthew 6:34, The Message)
But I love the way the NLT says Romans 12:9. It's just so plain and simple.
Don’t just pretend to love others. Really love them. Hate what is wrong. Hold tightly to what is good.
So, I guess I shop around for the best version for whatever situation I'm in or what I need to use the verse for.
We met for our first session last night, and we spent some time discussing this very issue. We ended up looking at Psalm 19 in the NIV, NKJ, and KJV versions as well as The Message translation provided. Our conclusion was that the Message version is much "softer". For example, where the NIV or KJV describes God's laws and commands, the Message uses words like 'signposts', which doesn't seem to command the same obedience and power.
Blessings,
Adrienne
THANK YOU!! We had some discomfort over the Message text and this helps tremendously.
From tea rooms to Bible translations – just another reason to LOVE this blog!
Praying for the California girls & the LPM Team.
Thanks Melissa. I was drawn to serious Bible study by Precept, so use the NASB Inductive Study Bible. Just started using a new on when the cover fell off of my old one, right before starting to do the Daniel study. So I thought it was great that my new Bible opens right to Daniel, as your Mom mentioned that her new Bible did.
Anyway I just love comparing translations and have a pile of Bibles open across my dining room table, along with Zodihates. Since I do daycare,my bonus study time is during naptime. But the books must be put away to feed the children their snack.
And when I add another Bible to my stack, I try to get another element of background info. So I have the Archaeological NIV..and the ESV is so awesome.
Thanks for the info on the question concerning the Trinity. It is great to have a place where we can strive to be smarter.
Terri
Hebrews 10:16 (New International Version)
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds."[a]
Same verse in the Message:
This new plan I'm making with Israel
isn't going to be written on paper,
isn't going to be chiseled in stone;
This time "I'm writing out the plan in them,
carving it on the lining of their hearts."
He concludes,
I'll forever wipe the slate clean of their sins.
Once sins are taken care of for good, there's no longer any need to offer sacrifices for them.
I picked this because I love to study from all translations – simply because the LORD leads me in showing me which one is igniting the meaning in my soul. I have to say very often it is The Message. Sometimes it is the KJV –
"Speak; for thy servant heareth." 1 Samuel 3:10 or Joshua 5:14 (King James Version)
14And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?
But God becomes alive through different translations at different times.
I work in our church bookstore and there is the most beautiful Bible that is a parallel between NIV/The message. I have not been able to buy it (and i do already own a NIV, NKJ, and NLT. But I loveing able to compare between the two.
One of my fav's from the message is:
When two of you get together on anything at all on earth and make a prayer of it, my Father in heaven goes into action. And when two or three of you are together because of me, you can be sure that I'll be there."
He WILL be there!
Matthew 18:20 The Message
Thank you for that!
I mostly use NKJV and NIV and NASB and (Bible gateway)…but I am grateful for your mention about ESV. I also am grateful for your information on the much loved Message.
Muchas Gracias,
Abby
Thanks so much for this post! I've been wondering these types of questions for a while now – NLT vs ESV vs NIV – myself. 🙂
Melissa,
Actually, I was thinking about the same thing. I have heard that the Message should not be considered a translation, but just a paraphrase and therefore be read with caution. I also found what you wrote about the other translations very interesting as well. I have stuck with the NIV as far as regular reading goes because I heard that's what your mom primarily uses and I'm not too knowledgeable in these areas. I've recently been curious about using other translations as far as general reading goes. So, since you said you primarily use the NASB I think I might check it out too. I love your research skills Melissa, they are very helpful!
BTW, do you know what I actually think about a lot that I so wish you would do!? I wish you would teach us how to go through a book of the Bible and how to break it down and study it. It would even be fun if you set it up like a class or something. I feel like I miss so much by just reading a book of the Bible through like a normal book, but I feel overwhelmed by the prospect of breaking it down and studying it. I guess I'm not really sure how to go about doing it. Do you know I have never read the whole Bible through, much less a book of the Bible. Wow. I realize how sad that truly is as I write it.
Just a thought;)
Thanks! KT
Great answer Melissa! I agree with using several translations and comparing them. I really appreciate the Message in that it says things differently and makes me think and sometimes even check with others translations to see "does is it really say that"! I think it has helped me see outside the box I can tend to try and put God in, such a ridiculous thing to do but I think many of us try to make God fit where we are more comfortable with Him.
Lynn in AB
thank you for this post! I really appreciated it and have the same concerns myself. I study from a NKJV Bible. I am wondering how it is different from an NASB Bible? I'm not sure where I got this impression, but I was under the impression that the NKJV and NASB Bibles are very similar in translation style.
wonderful! Thank you Melissa for such a thorough response.
I think I speak for lots of readers when i says this: can I tell you please just how much it BLESSES me that you ladies actually read the comments and respond? I have a tiny inkling of how busy you are (my own mother was in ministry) and it just blows my mind how diligent you ladies are about respecting your readers.
thank you and God bless you.
Deirdre
I had the hardest time getting anything other than a KJV for so long – even though our church used the NIV. When I finally broke down and got the NIV, I couldn't put it down. My eyes were opened in such a way that I could understand and appreciate so much. Had a very hard time with the Message at first. Have since come to appreciate that it says it like it is- sometimes with a bit of sarcasm it seems which can be good. We use it often in our small group bible study to help us get our minds around something. We now own several translations and home that we refer to regularly. Still love the NIV for everyday though.
Kim . . . who is
Grafted by Grace in any translation
Thank you for taking this one on!
Thank you Beth and Melissa for insight on the translations issue. Melissa's reponse was very helpful to me and hopefully to others. I had always heard that The Message was a translation, so what you stated is interesting. Sounds like Eugene Peterson is trying to let us see when the scripture take a more poetic style of writing. I strongly agree (it is what I do) that The Message should only be used as a secondary translation. I use it most when I am having trouble getting meaning of a verse and The Message helps shead some light on my understanding. I also use NIV, KJV and look at the Greek and Hebrew. I loved that Beth got us into looking at other versions in her Psalms of Ascent Bible Study, our small group just finished this study the end of May.
Katie in ND,
There are some pretty major differences between the NKJV and the NASB especially in relation to its textual base. I love the NKJV and read it often (I especially love the Psalms in the NKJV) but if you use it as your primary text make sure you pay attention to the footnotes as it is informative, etc. If you want a literal rendering that is based on a better manuscript tradition, use the NASB over the NKJV… but don't throw the baby out with the bath water!
Love to you…
Melissa
Oh Melissa, I want to be like you when I grow up!!! How I wish I had your eductation and your ability to express what you know.
That said, I worked in a Christian bookstore for a little while, and I wish I had pictures of the bewildered eyes of new believers buying their first Bibles. There are a lot of choices but a lot of wonderful opportunities to connect with God in different ways. He can't be contained in a book anyway!
I love you all am so grateful for how each of you pass along what you've been blessed with – wisdom, humor, knowledge, joy, and a few make-up tips here and there. It's a great reminder that we've been blessed to be a blessing.
Melissa,
You are a smart one and thanks for the great explanation. I plum wore out my NIV and have been using my new ESV which I ABSOLUTELY love! It helps me so much in my understanding.
I read Peterson's The Message every now and then but mostly read and study from the NIV and ESV.
God's Word is precious and to think He breathed His very breath on every jot and tittle!
Soak it up!
Melissa,
Girl! You really are quite awesome!
You know, your mom makes me want to dig deeper in the Bible. You, my sweet sister, make me want to dig deeper into Biblical history. I, too, am a student at heart. My mom still says that I'm a professional student–and I'm 34 years old. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for encouraging me to learn more and to be more intentional about studying the Bible. You go girl!
I majored in history and political science in college and was particularly intrigued by the Reformation. Do you by chance have a book recommendation on this subject?
Prayers and blessings,
Rebecca
tiggerdaisy,
buy 'the european reformations' by carter lindberg. it is a big book but i found it easy to read and after reading it felt like i could completely spit back out everything i had read. not sure why but it must just be the way he writes.
melissa
So good!! Thank you Melissa!!
Praying for the California trip! I was going to go but I can't miss my daughters bday party. 😉
I personally love the NRSV because of the way it handles gender references, but NLT is my very favorite. I have also been told that NRSV and NLT, like The Message, more closely follow the original languages. I've always worried a little about how those translations were "monkeyed around with" by the early kings, and I've also heard the NIV referred to as the "Nearly Inspired Version."
I have a Message/NIV parallel Bible that I bought myself for Valentines day this year…w/blessing from my man, of course! It's even pink!!
I LOVE this Bible. I miss my old NIV because it was like a scrapbook the thing is soooo well worn and dated w/my notes. It was hard to move on to a new one. BUT it was falling apart. The gospels were falling out in chunks! Anyway, for what it's worth, The Message rocks!
Hey Spiritual Mom Beth! Praying for you and the crew today!!!! A ton of Jesus, right on ya!:) I am glad to hear this from Melissa. I wasn't sure which translation was the best, although I was trying to find one that would be the closest to the original Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic. The NASB Key Word Study Bible is good. I like it. And the Amplified, just because, it has a special place in my heart:):)
Have a blast praising Him for me and the siestas!
Love in HIM, lots of ((HUGS)), Blessings to you today,
katiegfromtennessee
Thank you to fellow Siesta, Linda for giving me my next memory verse.
The NLT version of Romans 12:9.
I especially like the last phrase…"hold tightly to what is good." I needed to hear that today and am HOLDING ON as tight as I can. The world tries to pull us away but God's hand is a better fit.
Blessings, Sandy
Wow…what an amazing concise explanation of the different translations….thanks
Thank you for sharing this with us.
This is a subject that concerns me too, and I've spent a lot of time praying about.
At LPL Portland, I was so intrigued by some of the translations that Beth shared from The Message that I immediately ran out and bought the beautiful, leather "NIV/Message Parallel Study Bible" (even had my name put on it in gold…I'm all or nothing ;). I've always had reservations/concerns about this version, but I remember thinking, "If Beth Moore is okay with it, I guess I'm okay with it!"
I've tried, but I have not been able to bring myself to fully embrace "The Message" (I'm actually nervous about reading/memorizing from this version).
I've been asking the Lord if it's because He is asking me not to read from this version…or if I'm just afraid of something so different than what I'm used to? I don't know, I just want to be SO careful!
Just now, as I'm typing, a third scenario has come to mind. Maybe, just maybe, it really would be okay, BUT the Lord wants me to be educated and *know why* it's okay…instead of just embracing something because someone that I respect does (even if it is Beth Moore!! :).
Hmmmm?
If that's the case, I would say that this post is an answer to prayer.
Thank you!
Because I may possibly be a nerd, when I got my copy of The Message, I read the preface. I was so impressed by Eugene Peterson's comments: "The Message is a reading Bible. It is not intended to replace the excellent study Bibles that are available…" This gave me confidence of the translator's intent. I read The Message especially when my mind is having a hard time grasping a concept. Sometimes I just need the contemporary language for the scripture to sink in and soak in. Thanks, Melissa, for sharing your thoughts. I think The Message is an additional, wonderful tool for understanding our Father.
Thank you so much for this post. Somehow it doesn't seem to happen often that a serious Bible student recommends and uses the NASB as a first choice. It's my personal favorite, and is most "home" to me. It's the one that is underlined, written in, and the pages open where I want them to. It seems that most published studies use the NIV which is just different enough that I find myself juggling between the two (with a sprinkling of ESV and Message too:) which isn't a bad thing but my hands down fav has to be the NASB. Thanks, Melissa for sharing with all of us. I can't tell you how much this site, and LPM mean to my spiritual journey. You ladies rock!
Thank you so much, Melissa, for this beautiful and thoughtful blog. I would add that since Eugene Petersen seems to enhance, he is adding man's thoughts – don't want to be too critical of him – I just want as close to what God says as I can get – not taking away or adding anything!
I love this blog and your Bible Studies. To Katie on studying books of the bible – the Precept way is excellent as is the wonderful study of selected books you could get in Bible Study Fellowship.
How about ten tons of Jesus – I will be praying for Stockton – thank you Beth, Amanda, Melissa and all Living Proof for your sacrificial lives.
Thanks so much for the post. With so many versions it has been overwhelming for me. I finally settled on the NASB. I supplement with New Century Version and ESV.
Note to Beth:
I'm praying for you as you enter my state. May all my California sisters be blessed beyond measure.
Grandmamitz
That was some great information Melissa ,thank you. I am praying for you Beth and all in Stockton. I have a very good friend who is going to attend. She is a sweet Christian lady whose hubby has some chronic health issues and I know she is ready for some refreshment in study of God's word and praise!
As a PS. what a treat to have Beth on Life Today all week. I think this ministry would be a good topic for a blog someday :}
Sara, very cool that you read the preface to the Message before reading it. I had supposed that he probably said something like that but wasn't certain. Thanks for adding that.
MMF
MELISSA, I've enjoyed reading about the different translations, I've had questions about them too. I read this rather hurriedly as I'm at work, but I look forward to reading it later in depth when I have more time over the weekend.
BETH, And I AM one of those STOCKTON GIRLS that will be at there at the Stockton Arena tonight!! I am sooo excited to see and hear you in person! Our women's Bible Study Group, Women of Light, have done several of your studies and they have been awesome! Looking forward to a wonderful evening and morning on Saturday filled with God's amazing Spirit and blessings… Our prayers are with you Beth, as you speak God's words to us! See you tonight!! Prayers & Blessings…Carole Good
Melissa, I agree with Katie 12:42, "I wish you would teach us how to go through a book of the Bible, how to break it down and study it."
I share the same sentiments. You must get into teaching us too. How bout some teaching video on this blog. 🙂
Thanks for all you do.
Grandmamitz
Wow. This is the second time in a week I'm having things rocked a bit. "Mediating" – ? as it relates to the NIV? I'm for sure going to have to look this up. Or "some pastors still use it" as refers to the NIV. Again. This is disturbing language to me. I'm going to have to research this now. I was under the impression the NIV was held in the same level of respect as was the NAS; and also thought more American pastors/bible teachers used the NIV than any other translation. As much as I might like to cross reference what I read with five or six other translations, or "dig in" and look at the original languages; I'm doing good to pull out my Parallel Bible and put that to use.
This past Sunday my pastor, at a leading non-denominational church – the largest in our area – said, in defense of the truth of the Word and it's authenticity (overall it was an excellent sermon) – but he said that there were "errors in transmission" that he made sound were basically universally understood as such (errors, that is) and the text needed to be handled with this understanding. He didn't elaborate.
Heck. It made me puzzled and frustrated. I need to know that what I read I believe.
And I do. But can you shed some light, Melissa, on this phrase "error in transmission"? Is this something everyone in "Christian academeia" understands and it's just us busy to our eyeballs in life, glad to sit still in a pew long enough to hear the Word taught on a Sunday morning – who are the clueless ones?
I'll forego my normal sign off name since my response has some "tone" in it (as one of my dear friends would call it. Smile).
For today, just call me
In A Pew and Not Wanting to be Clueless
Well Beth, I hope you had a safe flight to Stockton. I actually saw you in line this morning as I took my children to the airport to fly to sunny (and cooler) California as well. May I just say I noticed a gentleman giving you his cell phone to speak to someone else, I will assume his starstruck wife, and thought it was precious of you to accomodate him. We would have hugged you too, but got through security too late!
Thank you Melissa for such a wonderful explanation, I have struggled with the same things myself so I just figure the more the merrier! 🙂
And thanks for using plethora – I love that word!!! LOL
Hugs – Jennifer
This is so interesting, but more than that, its highly informational about a question I hadn't thought much of beforehand. Great stuff. Thanks so much – I learned so much from this little post! I hope there will be more Q's and A's of all varieties like this in the future. Although I own several versions, I don't believe I own a NASB. (um, if I do, I obviously don't use it regularly since I can't even recall) I seriously need to consider getting and using a Formal Equivalence version. Thank you again for this "nugget" of information!!
There is a really neat website:
preceptaustin.org
That has tons of Biblical information including translations and all things Greek and Hebrew. There is a tab on there called It's Greek to Me that has a chart of Biblical translations and how close they are to the original (it's quite a ways down on the page). I haven't begun to scratch the surface of this site, but very cool as a reference.
God bless,
Dawn Holmes
Daytona Beach, FL
I wouldn't use anything except the New American Bible–written by the people who had access to the original documents!
Hey Siestas,
remember when you were a kid and you knew of only one type of Bible? For me it was KJV. I didn't even know there was another translation unitl I met my husband. Now over twenty years later, there are tons of translations. For me, I had to get rid of some legalism while doing Bible study, and needed another trnaslation to help me understand the lessons. So, I have my primary Bible the KJV and my NIV that I study out of. The thing for me is, I love the KJV, but,I understnad what the NIV is saying much better.
But ssshhhhhh don't tell my mother, or the little ladies in her church. They'll eat me alive.
:0)
Becky
When I write a blog, I always include a link back to Bible Gateway for the scripture verse I referenced. By clicking the link, my readers can use any perferred translation to view the verse.
When I grow up I want to be as smart as Melissa! 🙂
Like it? You betcha!
This is the kind of stuff that I love to dig into…..I was raised in a particular Body of believers that taught "if you aren't carrying the KJV or the NAS, then don't bother showing up here".
Dude.
So, I have a particularly tender heart towards those that struggle with which version to use, as I've had this same struggle. But I have learned so much since my early days, and this blog just spoke VOLUMES to me!